Odd Future
After an extended and hilarious Twitter argument between myself (@johnhutch), Trav (@bakesale77), and some fuckhead (@STONERTimmy), I’m wondering if the rest of the Scrab has any opinions on these guys. If you haven’t heard them, you can download all their shit for free on their website, but I think if you need a place to start, Tyler the Creator’s Yonkers and Earl Sweatshirt’s Stapleton are as good an intro as any. They’re weird, discomforting, and lyrically clever, and don’t sound like much else out there.
Comments
Honestly, the loud, raucous stuff sounds like Onyx of all things. And the slow eerie stuff sounds like some of the Ghetto Boys/Scarface/horrorcore type rap. Not bad, but also not the second coming of hip hop originality that a lot of internet folks are making it out to be.
1. We have to start having these little music arguments before 3am.
2. I’ve never been called an old man by a thirty-something high schooler before.
3. Still, that was really funny.
4. I’m looking forward to tormenting STONER Timmy for a long, long time.
Travis said:a thirty-something high schooler before.
I’m curious as to what this means or how it is even possible.
“Sorry, that page doesn’t exist.”
The only thing worse than twitter itself is arguments over twitter. They’re obviously intended to be public (otherwise have it over e-mail), but are ridiculous to attempt to read and follow by anyone other than the people engaging in it.
Oops:
http://twitter.com/#!/STONERTimmy
You’ll have to hop between mine, Trav’s, and his accounts to get the gist. The guy was infuriating.
Waaaaaaaaay too much work to follow. Although from the brief bits of information I was able to glean from the horrible mess of twitter, I was happy to see that Travis mentioned Gravediggaz, which is who I was thinking of when I mentioned horrorcore rap that they are basically ripping off.
I still don’t understand: Is stoner timmy a 30 year old high school student?
I like that Yonkers song a lot! Creative backing tunes, and I dig the delivery.
It’s almost Poetry Slam, which I hate. I guess the existence of a beat and him not rapping about feminism helps.
I’m listening to Tyler the Creators’ album now…it’s meh. It feels a lot like the same thing over and over again and it’s 15 tracks long.
Can you name a rap album you wouldn’t say that about? Cause I mean, either you like hip hop or you don’t. But that critique can be said about 95% of all the great rap albums out there.
I don’t listen to a lot of rap but I am sure there are plenty which move from one tempo to the next. I made it about 10 tracks in before the pace of the album just forced me to turn it off. I liked bits of the album I just wish there was more variety.
From what I’m gathering reading about this band and reading people’s comments, and reviews and who likes it and doesn’t like it etc. this is a cross between a www.stuffwhitepeoplelike.com entry, and the Mastadon of hip hop.
Kevin said:Travis said:a thirty-something high schooler before.
I’m curious as to what this means or how it is even possible.
I was just trying to say that the Twitter guy looks like he’s 30 in his profile pic, but he says he’s a teenager.
Anyway…I gave Goblin another listen the other night and I had to turn it off. There are some good tracks, but the album just isn’t good.
Kevin said:From what I’m gathering reading about this band and reading people’s comments, and reviews and who likes it and doesn’t like it etc. this is a cross between a www.stuffwhitepeoplelike.com entry, and the Mastadon of hip hop.
This is definitely the best way to evaluate music.
John said:Kevin said:From what I’m gathering reading about this band and reading people’s comments, and reviews and who likes it and doesn’t like it etc. this is a cross between a www.stuffwhitepeoplelike.com entry, and the Mastadon of hip hop.
This is definitely the best way to evaluate music.
I can’t tell if this is sarcasm or not, but have you not said that you base most of what you decide to listen to on reading about it or reviews, context etc.? Aren’t I the one normally advocating actually hearing things on the radio, or listening to them versus print based asessements?
In this case I’ve actually listened to this record a few times but don’t know nearly enough about hip hop to be able to offer and informed position beyond “Sounds like Gravediggaz” or on the more uptempo tunes “Sounds like Onyx”. So I have to go by people who are much more informed than me in the genre. And it definitely seems like the only people getting so jacked up over this band are white indie rock types adopting this as one of their “2-3 hip hop albums per year that are deemed worthy”, but are not really that well regarded by people whose main jams and area of expertise are hip hop.
Love this quote
Kevin said:
it definitely seems like the only people getting so jacked up over this band are white indie rock types adopting this as one of their “2-3 hip hop albums per year that are deemed worthy”
See the thing is, when it comes to hip hop I am totally one of those guys. If anything I can’t listen to most things that are favored by true hip hop fans (which I would consider someone for whom the majority of new records they listen to each year are from that genre). In this case, it’s not that I don’t like Odd Future/Tyler because they’re not “real” enough in the hip hop world. It’s just that I don’t particularly like it. So I want to be clear that I’m not saying this from the vantage point of my own opinion meaning anything at all. Just in terms of me looking at the whole picture to decide where this hype is coming from and whether it’s credible or not.
It’s the same deal I have with the token 2 or 3 metal records or pop records each year that are deemed worthy. Except from there I come from the perspective of a 30 year rabid fan of the genre (more so metal than pop, but still pretty close). I just don’t like indie kids stating with any kind of authority whether something is a good metal album or not because at least roughly 80% of the time they are full of crap and really know nothing about the genre and have not listened to more than a couple of albums from that genre each year.
You’re full of crap. Who cares if an album is representative of it’s genre, or hyped by people who don’t know any better. Is being cross-over really that bad a thing? Is the music any better or worse for it?
And to answer your question above, I pick albums to listen to based on reviews because sometimes people say things about albums that make me want to listen to them. Those things usually are along the line of “it sounds like….” and less so in the “X people really like this” vein. But either way, I try not to form an opinion on the music until I’ve actually listened to it myself, which doesn’t seem to be what you’ve done here.
What does it mean if an album receives little to no acclaim from its genres media but gets substantial fanfare from sites that don’t typically listen/write anything about other content from that area of music? I’m not saying “Goblin” is an example of this, just wondering if that would be considered crossover?
On one hand you have people that are knowledgeable of the genre pretty much ignoring the album, insisting it’s derivative or whatever. But, on the other side you have people who may only listen to one or two albums of that genre a year claiming it’s ground-breaking etc. Who’s right?
Or it could be that the vast majority of hip hop actually does suck, regardless of the fact that I’m white, hate T-Pain, and listen to indie rock. Which is what I’m going with. Because I fucking love rap, have for a my whole life, and I feel confident and capable of claiming that at some point in the early 00’s, Hip Hop lost the plot. Completely.
This album, to me, along with Bastard before it and the Earl Sandwich album, all feel like they’re picking up where those dudes, where Dalek, Oddateee, Wu Tang, DJ Spooky, Aesop Rock, Mr Lif, The Coup and all those amazing, weirdo rappers left off. It’s a step forward for hip hop, but from the point when it was still great.
As I stated, I actually listened to the album several times. Don’t care for it. Based that on listening to it. But there are tons of things I don’t like that I’m just not the target audience for and that I just don’t get because they are not my thing. And I was wondering if that was the case with this or not. And my point is that it doesn’t appear to be the case because based on who actually likes it and is claiming it’s really good (and I don’t just mean John I mean lots of people/sites), the target audience is clearly “white indie rock hipster types” rather than “hip-hop fans who know the genre extremely well”.
So since I’m clearly much closer to the former than the latter it’s clear that I don’t like it just because I don’t like it and not because I don’t understand the genre. Because people who do understand the genre and who listen to and know more than a token handful of albums in that style each year don’t seem to like it.
As for the concept of “cross-over”, that doesn’t really apply here. At least as far as I know it, something is a cross-over if it’s popular among fans of a specific genre (one typically not embraced by mainstream music) and then gets picked up on by the mainstream or fans of a different genre. Hence, crossing over.
Again, I’ll use Mastodon as an example. I like Mastodon because I’m an indie rock fan, not because I’m a metal fan. So I don’t consider anything about them “cross-over” either because people I know that like actual metal and have been metal fans for years and who can talk about which Iron Maiden singer is their favorite or which Manowar album is the best, or who listen to new albums by lots of metal bands but at the same time don’t have a fucking clue who Bon Iver or Q and not U are, just don’t know/care about Mastodon.
Again, this is obviously very generally speaking. I’m sure one could find some hip hop fans who like them and metal fans who do know Mastadon. As with everything we’re just speaking in generalities here.
John said:Or it could be that the vast majority of hip hop actually does suck, regardless of the fact that I’m white, hate T-Pain, and listen to indie rock. Which is what I’m going with. Because I fucking love rap, have for a my whole life, and I feel confident and capable of claiming that at some point in the early 00’s, Hip Hop lost the plot. Completely.
This album, to me, along with Bastard before it and the Earl Sandwich album, all feel like they’re picking up where those dudes, where Dalek, Oddateee, Wu Tang, DJ Spooky, Aesop Rock, Mr Lif, The Coup and all those amazing, weirdo rappers left off. It’s a step forward for hip hop, but from the point when it was still great.
Hey man, if you like it then like it. It’s not up for debate whether you like it or not. If you do, you do. It’s more the need to assign a larger significance to things which I’m debating, as well as my usual boogeyman topic of indie rock groupthink which is prevalent all over the damn place when it comes to anything outside that basic wheelhouse. “THIS IS THE BEST POP ALBUM OF THE YEAR” from someone who doesn’t listen to pop, or “THIS IS A GROUND BREAKING METAL ALBUM” from someone who has only a cursory knowledge of the genre just seem kind of silly. I don’t imagine you’d take seriously a dude who listens to 90% hip hop, or 90% metal saying “THE NEW VIVIAN GIRLS RECORD IS A TOTAL GAME CHANGER FOR THE INDIE ROCK SCENE. BEST ALBUM OF THE YEAR FOR THIS STYLE!” Or maybe you would. I don’t know. I just know that I definitely would roll my eyes and go “Yeah, sure. Whatever you say.”
Also, for the record I know on this forum it may seem like I’m directing this stuff at you individually, but I’m actually having the same exact debates on other forums with people of similar demographics who I’d say 95% of the timehave the same opinions and takes on things which is what I’m talking about when I debate these subjects. So it’s definitely a collective, larger scale impression, and not simply a John Hutch thing.
Well, provided we narrow the context to underground/abstract hip hop (i.e., rap music for nerdy white kids), I think I fall under the category of "fans who know the genre extremely well.” References available upon request. And from that position, I’m confident in making the claim that OddFuture, in general, are making some of the best albums respective of their peers, in almost ten years. Granted, I haven’t followed the scene closely in that span of time, but I have heard anything I thought was this exciting since 2002 when Dalek’s second album and Lif’s Emergency Rations came out. That said, I couldn’t give two shits about most of the clubby, radio rap because it exists almost entirely for dancing and parties, which I don’t do much of these days (and when I did, that stuff still grated on me).
This may, in fact, be one of those instances where the hype is earned and deserved. And if it’s just white nerds that are digging it? Well, that’s everyone else’s loss.
That may be the issue here. I do not doubt your abstract/underground hip hop credentials. I just think of that sub-whatever genre as largely a white nerd/indie fan thing in general and not really part of actual hip hop culture or in the hip hop tradition. Which is why the actual hip hop fans I know of and the press which traditionally covers that stuff don’t seem to care.
Two sentence that rang incredibly true to me from that article:
1. “How much music sucks today and why” is my least favorite conversation topic”
2. “I don’t know that some of the most-hyped young bands are doing anything new enough to compensate for their limited skills as songwriters and musicians.”
Sadly, there are only a few people (most of which are here on this site) who don’t fall into category #1 or #2, so I rarely talk about music outside of The Scrabbled.
John said:Two sentence that rang incredibly true to me from that article:
1. “How much music sucks today and why” is my least favorite conversation topic”
John said:Or it could be that the vast majority of hip hop actually does suck…… at some point in the early 00’s, Hip Hop lost the plot. Completely.
All kidding aside my issue is not that I think there’s no good music today and old music was better, which is typical for my age. I hate when people my age do this. I just also hate when things are touted as original when they are most definitely not. There is literally nothing original. Nothing. And I’m o.k. with that. Not everything has be be breaking new ground. I just want the hype machine to be a bit more deferential to this fact and aware of it’s roots.
Also, I’m glad to see that the ridiculous sexism and gross homophobia is also starting to get called out at least somewhat. Even giving some leeway because it’s part of the semiotic background of hip hop (which still shouldn’t be the case but whatever that’s another argument) there’s some pretty rancid stuff on that record.
I could absolutely not give less of a fuck about Tegan and Sara who I’ve never heard a note of music from. But I saw this linked to and it’s pretty dead on in every single way.
http://teganandsara.com/news/a-call-for-change/
I mean I’ve liked some sketchy artists in the past, but at least I was pretty open about my internal conflict from the outset. The amount of reviews and posts all over the interwebs that praise this stuff without at least adding the caveat “but these are some pretty rotten, hateful lyrics” are weak at best.
Ugh, enough already. I take Oddfuture’s lyrics with the same grain of salt I take Slayer’s. It’s fantasy; like watching a horror movie and rooting for the bad guy. But despite years and years of awful topics in songs about horrible shit that everyone I know listens to and regularly, somehow this Oddfuture stuff is what’s riling people. I don’t get it.
I mean, the same people who celebrate NWA and Wu-Tang are getting on Tyler the Creator for lyrics like this:
Game of duck duck duct tape with a dead goose.
She run around some motherfuckin’ dungeon, her legs loose.
Until I accidently get the saw to her head, oops.
or
Rape a pregnant bitch and tell my friends I had a threesome.
Did Tegan and Sara complain about the last summer blockbuster horror flick? Then why do they have a problem with shit like:
Jeeper the fuckin’ creeper, get your daughter and keep her,
In the jeeps where the Wolf Gang rides around deeper.
Take her to Ladera, now she scare and you’re embarrassed,
Filled with terror, chop her legs off tell and her to run some errands.
Put her eyes in the canteen, take her to the Berrics.
Is that any more misogynist than the last Scream movie?
Hell, the third track opens with:
Random disclaimer
Hey, don’t do anything that I say in this song, okay? It’s fuckin’ fiction
If anything happens, don’t fuckin’ blame me, white America.
Fuck Bill O’Reilly.
It’s clear fantasy and anyone taking this shit seriously is looking for a reason to dislike it. Tegan can complain about the “message” but the only message I’m getting is “yo, listen to how fucked up this is” like the infamous “Torture” segue track on Wu-Tang’s first album (“I’ll sew your asshole shut, and keep feeing you, and feeding you, and feeding you…”) If you want socially conscious hip hop, Mos Def, Common, De La Soul, and the amazing Mr Lif all make some fantastic records. I suggest you buy them, if not solely because no one else is — including these assholes complaining about Odd Future’s lyrical content. But if you want to listen to some funny, horrible rhymes over some really fantastic, creepy beats, Goblin’s not a bad album.
ok you guys caught me
i’m not a fucking rapist, or a serial killer, i lied
(You know, you just wanted attention)
I tried too hard huh?
Yeah, but here’s the thing: Countless amounts of ink have been spilled on all the subjects you’ve mentioned. NWA and Slayer were both hugely controversial when they came out and their lyrics were debated, etc.
And I’m not even talking about the violence stuff I’m talking more about the homophobia stuff which doesn’t come in the guise of being “just like a movie” or whatever. And he’s pretty much said he’s using it as an insult.
Again, I’m not saying that would be the sole reason to dismiss it as art. But it should at least be discussed.
John said:
I mean, the same people who celebrate NWA and Wu-Tang are getting on Tyler the Creator for lyrics like this:
Also, this is the biggest "I’m going to make a bold, large statement and put it out there in the course of debate and hope nobody calls me on it.
Really? I’ll write you a check for $50 if you can pull up an example of someone “celebrating NWA and Wu Tang lyrics” who is now complaining about these.
The point isn’t that it diminishes the art itself, but it’s that it should at least be discussed and debated and in the past it has. It just doesn’t seem to be talked about nearly a fraction as much here. I mean I realize such discussions would get in the way of white hipsters falling all over themselves to make the case that warmed over Gravediggaz is somehow bold and new, but still.
And for me it’s not the violence, which yeah occurs in lots of music and in lots of art. But for me, even in terms of movies, art, literature, and yes music if someone is going to employ rape and/or homophobia as a device in any situation then yeah I am going to be conflicted and uncomfortable about it and yeah it better be done with a lot of forethought and clarification as to why it’s being used.
You added the word “lyrics” to your quote from me, which I didn’t say. But it was a reference to what I could swear was a Tegan (or Sara, I forget which)‘s cover of an Easy E song on NPR a few years ago ago, except I can’t seem to dig it up so now I’m wondering who it was who did it.
I dunno, I guess I just think discussing the impact and importance of pop music lyrics is just done to death; especially this day and age when the shelf life of any one particular album is two weeks, tops.
I don’t think it’s a matter of discussing the importance in pop music lyrics as it is discussing the degree of supporting someone who promotes homophobia. Presumably you don’t support either monetarily or with advocacy or support of their businesses companies that advocate homophobia. So why would you not at least have some internal conflict and discussion advocating it with artists? I’m not saying it means you don’t listen to the artists, just that a little bit of self reflection and discussion on the topic is nice and given the climate of the country in general on such subjects probably necesitates something more than a (paraphrasing) “Yawn…not this again.” Especially among a straight, white, middle class audience which is the primary target for this stuff. I think there’s a big difference between not thinking pop music lyrics should be important when talking abou how inane Kesha’s lyrics are, and discussing why a group singing about rape and spewing anti gay epithets feels compelled to do so and if they are making some sort of larger cultural statement or are just idiots.
I dunno, I see stuff like this and I don’t know what to think so I hope for the best.
I’m a fucking walking paradox / No I’m not.
. . . I’m not a homophobe, faggot.
http://twitter.com/#!/fucktyler/status/69920687548145664
Makes me feel better about pirating the album, at least.
And for the record I do like plenty of stuff with reprehensible lyrics and/or singers with shitty thoughts ideas. Bad Brains are still one of the greatest bands ever, but I’ve spent countless hours deliberating and discussing with people why they were total homophobes and how conflicting it was. And One In A Million by Guns and Roses is still a phenomenal tune with some really bad lyrics but it’s still a great jam. I just like to at least know that people are thinking about this stuff and at least somewhat concerned, even if in the end they just like the tunes.