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Well look at that, even I’m learning something new. I thought a majority of the founding fathers were Christian. Then… I just text-searched for “god” in the Constitution and came up empty!
Yeah, man, don’t even get me started on that whole “christian nation” bullshit Fox News and their ilk keep spoon feeding us. At most you could say we’re a deist nation, and we’re barely that. It’s like none of these people ever read anything Paine or Jefferson ever wrote. It’s truly amazing how our history classes all featured “Common Sense” and it’s pivotal role in the American Revolution and the founding of our country, but then completely ignore “Age of Reason.”
bill mahr is a hack who panders to a certain crowd. i guess he’s built his career on being a comedian, but ive yet to hear something funny come out of his mouth.
as far as this film goes, im so tired of atheism. yeah i dont really swallow the whole god thing either, but this militant kick that atheists have such a hard on for is just so annoying that even i cant stand to listen to it anymore. its odd that the people who claim to be the most open minded tend to be the ones who are the least.
just because you arent humble enough to feel like you should bow to something that maybe great than you doesnt mean that you should constantly try to pull the rug out from under those who have. i constantly see ‘atheists’ take pride in any shot they can take at people with some sense of religion and it actually disgusts me.
the very truth of it all is that i dont have the answers, they dont have the answers, and you dont have the answers.
but dont worry, ill fight just as hard for them to have their religion as i will for you to have your…. … nothing… ?
(im not speaking to anyone specific, just getting it out there. also,spelling mistakes are intentional. also also, john is right in the idea that they did beleive something, though it might not have been the christian religion, i brought up jeffersons idea of god in a previous religious post and said that it was the thing that i could sooner identify with.)
I like Maher as a moderator on a panel. He’s a good devil’s advocate if nothing else. But I actually saw his stand up at one point in person and it was really not very funny at all.
All I know is that atheists aren’t the ones saying that in poll after poll that they would never vote for a Christian or someone who believes in god. And atheists aren’t the ones in every position of power and thus atheists aren’t the ones creating laws based off of their lack of beliefs. When they are then maybe I’ll be willing to have a conversation about how mean and nasty all those atheists are. Until then, anyone can spare me the poor, put upon, discriminated against religious people routine and how it’s preventing them from doing anything, because it absolutely is not.
im not arguing that religion doesnt hold a lot of pull around the country, its got a lot of members. like i said, im just put off by the militant style of atheism. im more of a live and let live type of person and try to let things that i think are bigger then me roll of my back, and one of those things is the idea of how all this came to be.
i do agree that you need a more common sense and reason playing into your making of laws, but most people judge from their background, their morals, there instincts, and somewhere in there they ‘hear’ the voice of god.
and the only thing bill maher displays while being a moderator on a panel is that he is not a moderate. on politically incorrect he was a decent host, but from what ive seen of his newer show… real time with bill maher i think it is, he really just brings in conservative guests for the chance to grill them in front of the audience. its not discussion, its not news, its all for applause, its commentary, so whatever, im just not entertained by him.
I think it’s just that he’s a reactionary in general. When Politically Correct was on the air it was the Clinton 90’s when the inclination of the country and the direction things were going in was more liberal. And on that show he definitely tended to hammer and question liberals just as much as he did anyone else. And he was good at forcing such people at the time into defending their positions and their stances on things. His new show is on during a much more conservative time in the country so much of what he does and says is a reaction to that and it’s conservatives who he forces to justify their stances on stuff. And when the subject is religion there’s no doubt he skews liberal and leftward. But back in the 90’s on Politically Incorrect there was no doubt he spent just as much time skewing the scolding, prudish views of the left as much as anything or anyone else.
Derrick said:
as far as this film goes, im so tired of atheism. yeah i dont really swallow the whole god thing either, but this militant kick that atheists have such a hard on for is just so annoying that even i cant stand to listen to it anymore. its odd that the people who claim to be the most open minded tend to be the ones who are the least.
This kills me. The whole militant atheist thing. How you can you be militant about a lack of belief? If the whole country believed in Zeus and I stood on the corner going “Are you people crazy!? Zeus?! Seriously!? Let’s go walk up Mount Olympus right now and see if he’s there.” I wouldn’t be militant. I’d be some dude with some common sense. But this idea that religious belief is somehow above all attack or inquiry, it’s for the birds.
Derrick said:just because you arent humble enough to feel like you should bow to something that maybe great than you doesnt mean that you should constantly try to pull the rug out from under those who have. i constantly see ‘atheists’ take pride in any shot they can take at people with some sense of religion and it actually disgusts me.
So it’s humble to claim knowledge of an all-powerful being that exists solely to love us and save us and will answer our prayers if only we are devout enough, but it’s somehow arrogant or prideful to toss up your hands and go “Yeah, that doesn’t sound very logical to me. I really don’t know why we’re hear or whatever.” That’s horse manure.
Derrick said:the very truth of it all is that i dont have the answers, they dont have the answers, and you dont have the answers.
I’m thinking maybe you just don’t understand what atheism is, so lemme break it down for you. The prefix of “a” means no or without. the root “theism” is religious belief. So put it together and an atheist is someone without religious belief or, taking it further, without any belief. There are, of course, various subdivisions of atheism where some claim that god cannot exist, other claim god can exist but they don’t believe without evidence, and others still just take it to mean that have no defined set of beliefs but are open to whatever ("e.g., “I don’t have beliefs, I have ideas.”).
On the other end is agnosticism. Again, “a” is no or without, and gnostism or gnostic is rooted in the latin for “knowledge” and, in particular, means mystical knoweldge. Agnostics simply assert that one cannot know whether god does or does not exist. This separate and independent from atheism. One can be a thiest agnostic (you believe in God, but don’t believe it’s possible to know for sure either way), an athiest gnostic (you don’t believe and god and assert that you know he doesn’t exist) or, atheist agnostic (you don’t believe in god and assert that you cannot know. This is the category I fall into).
So there you have it. You religious lesson for the day. To summarize, “militant atheism” is just a silly a notion as “militant philosophers,” there’s nothing arrogant about saying “I don’t believe that” and nothing humble about believing in the divine, and very few atheists, if any at all, claim to have “the answers,” unlike our theist friends.
Lemme ask you something: am I not humble for being atoothfarieist? Am I closed minded for being asantaclausian?
I took what he said to mean that its fine to think one way or another, but most people realize that other people have their own opinions that they’re probably just fine with.
I think religion is pretty silly on the whole, but I don’t feel the need to go around and point that out to people. That’s the kind of thing Jehovah’s Witnesses do. And everyone hates Jehovah’s witnesses.
And throwing in that semantics lesson pretty much made the point.
And I learned how to italicize!
Do you think there’s a point where someone’s beliefs are so ridiculous that you can’t blame someone for calling them on it? E.g., scientologists, skin-heads, 9/11 hoaxers, flat-earthers, jihadist muslims, etc. I ask because I wonder if you’re of the mind that all opinions and beliefs are our own and no one has the right to call someone else on their bullshit, or if you believe there’s a line that can be drawn where the need for respect is dropped.
Sure there is, but its somewhere around the point of it actually affecting people in some reasonably negative way. People going to church does not fit that standard.
And those groups you mentioned don’t really fit the bill, since those are all beliefs people come by at some point and stick to because they want to, not really because it makes any sense.
Evan said:Sure there is, but its somewhere around the point of it actually affecting people in some reasonably negative way. People going to church does not fit that standard.
And those groups you mentioned don’t really fit the bill, since those are all beliefs people come by at some point and stick to because they want to, not really because it makes any sense.
Was that last sentence sarcasm? Because while I don’t have any love for religion at all and am a staunch atheist, I at least have a higher degree of respect for people who find a religion and convert to it. At least that is something they came to with a reasonable degree of effort and education on the subject. The problem I have with most of it is that it’s so completely rote and people are born into it, and never question it despite the complete and utter nonsensical nature of it all.
That’s why judaism, and hinduism are 2 religions that never really get my riled up. They don’t seek to impost their beliefs on anyone else, don’t seek to make laws based on those beliefs, and don’t actively seek to save or convert people, and they encourage deeper thought and questioning of things. In essence it’s live and let live, and it’s almost harder to be a member of those religions without the requisite self questioning that those religions require. Which is all this atheist wants from any religion.
I guess what I meant was that a couple of the ones John listed were just covers for some deeply help notion.
Skinheads are trying to either justify their racism or blame someone for their shitty lives. 9/11 hoaxers hate the government, or love conspiracies. Scientologists are covering for mental retardation.
You could say similar things about religion though, Evan. Cover for fear of death or the unknown, for feelings of solitude, ineptness, you name it.
True, if you get reborn or something late in life, but if you grow up with it, and learn it all when you’re a kid who doesn’t really understand or worry about those things, I think its a little different.